#883: How to Legalize Medical Psychedelics in Your Country — Tania de Jong on The Playbook Behind Australia's World-First Breakthrough
O epizodě podcastu
My guest today is Tania de Jong , co-founder of Mind Medicine Australia . Tania and her husband, Peter, helped lead the push that, in 2023, made Australia the first country in the world to allow MDMA and psilocybin to be prescribed for psychiatric conditions. I wanted to understand how the hell they helped make that happen and what the rest of the world can learn from it.
This episode is brought to you by:
- ProLon science-backed Fasting Mimicking Diet that helps activate cellular renewal through fasting, while still eating nourishing meals: https://prolonlife.com/Tim
- Momentous high-quality creatine for cognitive and muscular support: https://LivemoMentous.com/Tim
- AG1 all-in-one nutritional supplement: DrinkAG1.com/Tim
Timestamps
[00:00:00] Intro from Tim.
[00:02:46] The article that changed Tania’s life.
[00:04:39] A first psychedelic experience—and the year it took to integrate it.
[00:10:17] Rick Doblin’s encouragement and the birth of Mind Medicine Australia.
[00:13:15] Turning regulatory rejection into a stronger application.
[00:20:48] Building a grassroots movement and training clinicians.
[00:23:23] Cold emails, scientific allies, and singing your way into the room.
[00:31:11] A week with Ram Dass: silence, singing, and an extraordinary LSD story.
[00:37:54] Bringing David Nutt—and a family’s devastating story—to the regulators.
[00:42:42] Dancing in the kitchen: Australia’s rescheduling breakthrough.
[00:43:40] From changing the rules to treating patients.
[00:48:18] Why Tim thinks MDMA is still underestimated.
[00:50:23] Integration beyond the session: therapy, nutrition, and exercise.
[00:52:29] Scaling access and collecting real-world evidence.
[00:58:13] Getting insurers, government agencies, and philanthropists on board.
[01:01:39] Syrian rue, psilocybin, and learning to let go of control.
[01:10:01] Dosing, expectations, and the pressure to take more.
[01:12:02] The promise of group therapy and shared integration.
[01:14:22] Hiring mistakes, personal attacks, and the resilience advocacy requires.
[01:23:38] Turning a window of change into lasting habits.
[01:25:51] Getting through to regulators and pushing for end-of-life access.
[01:28:27] The bureaucratic barriers that remain.
[01:31:38] What treatment costs—and why therapist time drives the bill.
[01:35:07] Could shorter-acting compounds make treatment more affordable?
[01:38:46] Ketamine, kratom, and the limits of “all natural.”
[01:43:14] The unexpected payoff from Tim’s ketamine experiment.
[01:47:46] What might come next for psychedelic access worldwide?
[01:49:04] Persistence versus pushiness—and knowing when to try another door.
[01:54:22] Supporting patients and training the next wave of clinicians.
[01:57:51] “Be curious”: exploring your inner world and walking each other home.
[02:01:35] The ripple effects of sharing your curiosity—and simply asking for help.
Timeline:
- February 2, 2015: Michael Pollan publishes “ The Trip Treatment ” in The New Yorker, which is the article Tania credits with setting her journey in motion.
- March 21, 2015: Tim releases his James Fadiman interview, “ The Psychedelic Explorer’s Guide ” (#66). Its show notes link to “The Trip Treatment.”
- January 15, 2016: In 5-Bullet Friday , Tim announces support for Johns Hopkins’ psilocybin research and a personal commitment of at least $100,000 toward psychedelic research that year.
- 2016: Tania and Peter travel to the Netherlands for their first guided psilocybin experience. (Source)
- 2017–2019: UCSF conducts the psilocybin-assisted group-therapy study involving long-term AIDS survivors that Tim helped support. (Source)
- May 6, 2018: Michael Pollan joins Tim for “Exploring the New Science of Psychedelics” (#313), discussing his forthcoming book ( How to Change Your Mind ) .
- May 15, 2018: Pollan’s How to Change Your Mind is published.
- February 13, 2019: Tania and Peter publicly launch Mind Medicine Australia . (Source)
- 2020–2022: MMA applies to reschedule MDMA and psilocybin, faces rejection, and submits new applications in March 2022. (Source)
- November 21, 2022: David Nutt presents to Australia’s medicines regulator, the TGA, supporting the case for therapeutic access. (Source)
- February 3, 2023: The TGA announces restricted prescribing access to MDMA for PTSD and psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression, effective July 1, 2023 . (Source)
- January 2024: Patients begin receiving treatment under the new prescribing program. (Source)
*
For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show , please visit tim.blog/podcast .
For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show , please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors
Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter ( 5-Bullet Friday ) at tim.blog/friday .
For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts .
Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books .
Follow Tim:
Twitter : twitter.com/tferriss
Instagram : instagram.com/timferriss
YouTube : youtube.com/timferriss
Facebook : facebook.com/timferriss
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferriss
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info .
My guest today is Tania de Jong , co-founder of Mind Medicine Australia . Tania and her husband, Peter, helped lead the push that, in 2023, made Australia the first country in the world to allow MDMA and psilocybin to be prescribed for psychiatric conditions. I wanted to understand how the hell they helped make that happen and what the rest of the world can learn from it.
This episode is brought to you by:
- ProLon science-backed Fasting Mimicking Diet that helps activate cellular renewal through fasting, while still eating nourishing meals: https://prolonlife.com/Tim
- Momentous high-quality creatine for cognitive and muscular support: https://LiveMomentous.com/Tim
- AG1 all-in-one nutritional supplement: DrinkAG1.com/Tim
Timestamps
[00:00:00] Intro from Tim.
[00:02:46] The article that changed Tania’s life.
[00:04:39] A first psychedelic experience—and the year it took to integrate it.
[00:10:17] Rick Doblin’s encouragement and the birth of Mind Medicine Australia.
[00:13:15] Turning regulatory rejection into a stronger application.
[00:20:48] Building a grassroots movement and training clinicians.
[00:23:23] Cold emails, scientific allies, and singing your way into the room.
[00:31:11] A week with Ram Dass: silence, singing, and an extraordinary LSD story.
[00:37:54] Bringing David Nutt—and a family’s devastating story—to the regulators.
[00:42:42] Dancing in the kitchen: Australia’s rescheduling breakthrough.
[00:43:40] From changing the rules to treating patients.
[00:48:18] Why Tim thinks MDMA is still underestimated.
[00:50:23] Integration beyond the session: therapy, nutrition, and exercise.
[00:52:29] Scaling access and collecting real-world evidence.
[00:58:13] Getting insurers, government agencies, and philanthropists on board.
[01:01:39] Syrian rue, psilocybin, and learning to let go of control.
[01:10:01] Dosing, expectations, and the pressure to take more.
[01:12:02] The promise of group therapy and shared integration.
[01:14:22] Hiring mistakes, personal attacks, and the resilience advocacy requires.
[01:23:38] Turning a window of change into lasting habits.
[01:25:51] Getting through to regulators and pushing for end-of-life access.
[01:28:27] The bureaucratic barriers that remain.
[01:31:38] What treatment costs—and why therapist time drives the bill.
[01:35:07] Could shorter-acting compounds make treatment more affordable?
[01:38:46] Ketamine, kratom, and the limits of “all natural.”
[01:43:14] The unexpected payoff from Tim’s ketamine experiment.
[01:47:46] What might come next for psychedelic access worldwide?
[01:49:04] Persistence versus pushiness—and knowing when to try another door.
[01:54:22] Supporting patients and training the next wave of clinicians.
[01:57:51] “Be curious”: exploring your inner world and walking each other home.
[02:01:35] The ripple effects of sharing your curiosity—and simply asking for help.
Timeline:
- February 2, 2015: Michael Pollan publishes “ The Trip Treatment ” in The New Yorker, which is the article Tania credits with setting her journey in motion.
- March 21, 2015: Tim releases his James Fadiman interview, “ The Psychedelic Explorer’s Guide ” (#66). Its show notes link to “The Trip Treatment.”
- January 15, 2016: In 5-Bullet Friday , Tim announces support for Johns Hopkins’ psilocybin research and a personal commitment of at least $100,000 toward psychedelic research that year.
- 2016: Tania and Peter travel to the Netherlands for their first guided psilocybin experience. (Source)
- 2017–2019: UCSF conducts the psilocybin-assisted group-therapy study involving long-term AIDS survivors that Tim helped support. (Source)
- May 6, 2018: Michael Pollan joins Tim for “Exploring the New Science of Psychedelics” (#313), discussing his forthcoming book ( How to Change Your Mind ) .
- May 15, 2018: Pollan’s How to Change Your Mind is published.
- February 13, 2019: Tania and Peter publicly launch Mind Medicine Australia . (Source)
- 2020–2022: MMA applies to reschedule MDMA and psilocybin, faces rejection, and submits new applications in March 2022. (Source)
- November 21, 2022: David Nutt presents to Australia’s medicines regulator, the TGA, supporting the case for therapeutic access. (Source)
- February 3, 2023: The TGA announces restricted prescribing access to MDMA for PTSD and psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression, effective July 1, 2023 . (Source)
- January 2024: Patients begin receiving treatment under the new prescribing program. (Source)
*
For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show , please visit tim.blog/podcast .
For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show , please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors
Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter ( 5-Bullet Friday ) at tim.blog/friday .
For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts .
Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books .
Follow Tim:
Twitter : twitter.com/tferriss
Instagram : instagram.com/timferriss
YouTube : youtube.com/timferriss
Facebook : facebook.com/timferriss
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferriss
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info .