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#870: Sebastian Mallaby, Biographer of Demis Hassabis — Lessons from 100+ AI Insiders on The Race to Superintelligence, The Religion of AI, and Spotting Breakthroughs Early

The Tim Ferriss Show

Tim Ferriss is a self-experimenter and bestselling author, best known for The 4-Hour Workweek, which has been translated into 40+ languages. Newsweek calls him "the world's best human guinea pig," and The New York Times calls him "a cross between Jack Welch and a Buddhist monk." In this show, he deconstructs world-class performers from eclectic areas (investing, chess, pro sports, etc.), digging deep to find the tools, tactics, and tricks that listeners can use.

Sebastian Mallaby (<a href="https://x.com/scmallaby" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">@scmallaby</a>) is the <a href="https://www.cfr.org/paul-volcker-chair-international-economics" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Paul A. Volcker senior fellow for international economics</a> at the Council on Foreign Relations, a two-time Pulitzer Prize finalist, and the author of six books, including <a href="https://www.amazon.com/More-Money-Than-God-Relations/dp/0143119419/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">More Money Than God</a>,<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Power-Law-Venture-Capital-Making/dp/052555999X/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"> The Power Law</a>,<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Knew-Times-Greenspan-ebook/dp/B01CDVCAXS/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"> The Man Who Knew</a>, and <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Banker-Financial-Poverty-Relations-ebook/dp/B01MUNOYM9/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The World's Banker</a>. His latest book is <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Machine-Hassabis-DeepMind-Superintelligence/dp/0593831845/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The Infinity Machine: Demis Hassabis, DeepMind, and the Quest for Superintelligence</a>.This episode is brought to you by:<ul><li><a href="https://www.eightsleep.com/tim/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Eight Sleep Pod Cover 5</a> sleeping solution for dynamic cooling and heating: <a href="https://www.eightsleep.com/tim/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">EightSleep.com/Tim</a></li><li><a href="https://drinkag1.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">AG1 Pro</a> all-in-one nutritional supplement: <a href="https://drinkag1.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">DrinkAG1.com/Tim</a></li><li><a href="http://wealthfront.com/Tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Wealthfront</a> high-yield cash account: <a href="https://wealthfront.com/Tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Wealthfront.com/Tim</a> </li></ul>Wealthfront disclaimer: <a href="https://wealthfront.com/Tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">New clients get 3.30% base APY from program banks + additional 0.75% boost for 3 months on your uninvested cash</a> (max $150k balance). Terms and conditions apply. The Cash Account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC (“WFB”) member FINRA/SIPC, not a bank. The base APY as of 1/30/26 is representative, can change, and requires no minimum. Tim Ferriss, a non-client, receives compensation from WFB for advertising and holds a non-controlling equity interest in the corporate parent of WFB, which creates a conflict of interest. Individual experiences and outcomes will differ. Instant withdrawals may be limited by your receiving firm and other factors. Investment advisory services provided by Wealthfront Advisers LLC, an SEC-registered investment adviser. Securities investments: not bank deposits, not bank-guaranteed or FDIC-insured, and may lose value.*For show notes and past guests on <a href="https://tim.blog/podcast" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The Tim Ferriss Show</a>, please visit <a href="https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/podcast</a>.For deals from sponsors of <a href="https://tim.blog/podcast" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The Tim Ferriss Show</a>, please visit <a href="https://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/podcast-sponsors</a>Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at <a href="https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/friday</a>.For transcripts of episodes, go to <a href="https://tim.blog/transcripts" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/transcripts</a>.Discover Tim’s books: <a href="https://tim.blog/books" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/books</a>.Follow Tim:Twitter: <a href="https://twitter.com/tferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">twitter.com/tferriss</a> Instagram: <a href="https://instagram.com/timferriss/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">instagram.com/timferriss</a>YouTube: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/timferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">youtube.com/timferriss</a>Facebook: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">facebook.com/timferriss</a> LinkedIn: <a href="http://linkedin.com/in/timferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">linkedin.com/in/timferriss</a>See Privacy Policy at <a href="https://art19.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://art19.com/privacy</a> and California Privacy Notice at <a href="https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info</a>.

Sebastian Mallaby (<a href="https://x.com/scmallaby" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">@scmallaby</a>) is the <a href="https://www.cfr.org/paul-volcker-chair-international-economics" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Paul A. Volcker senior fellow for international economics</a> at the Council on Foreign Relations, a two-time Pulitzer Prize finalist, and the author of six books, including <a href="https://www.amazon.com/More-Money-Than-God-Relations/dp/0143119419/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">More Money Than God</a>,<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Power-Law-Venture-Capital-Making/dp/052555999X/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"> The Power Law</a>,<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Knew-Times-Greenspan-ebook/dp/B01CDVCAXS/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"> The Man Who Knew</a>, and <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Banker-Financial-Poverty-Relations-ebook/dp/B01MUNOYM9/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The World's Banker</a>. His latest book is <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Machine-Hassabis-DeepMind-Superintelligence/dp/0593831845/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The Infinity Machine: Demis Hassabis, DeepMind, and the Quest for Superintelligence</a>.This episode is brought to you by:<ul><li><a href="https://www.eightsleep.com/tim/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Eight Sleep Pod Cover 5</a> sleeping solution for dynamic cooling and heating: <a href="https://www.eightsleep.com/tim/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">EightSleep.com/Tim</a></li><li><a href="https://drinkag1.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">AG1 Pro</a> all-in-one nutritional supplement: <a href="https://drinkag1.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">DrinkAG1.com/Tim</a></li><li><a href="http://wealthfront.com/Tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Wealthfront</a> high-yield cash account: <a href="https://wealthfront.com/Tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Wealthfront.com/Tim</a> </li></ul>New clients get 3.30% base APY from program banks + additional  0.75% boost for 3 months on your uninvested cash (max $150k balance). Terms and conditions apply. The Cash Account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC (“WFB”) member FINRA/SIPC, not a bank. The base APY as of 1/30/26 is representative, can change, and requires no minimum. Tim Ferriss, a non-client, receives compensation from WFB for advertising and holds a non-controlling equity interest in the corporate parent of WFB, which creates a conflict of interest.  Individual experiences and outcomes will differ. Instant withdrawals may be limited by your receiving firm and other factors. Investment advisory services provided by Wealthfront Advisers LLC, an SEC-registered investment adviser. Securities investments: not bank deposits, not bank-guaranteed or FDIC-insured, and may lose value.*Timestamps<ul><li>[00:00:00] Start.</li><li>[00:02:11] The twinkly eyed polymath who became Sebastian's next book.</li><li>[00:06:55] Picking the next book project the way a great VC picks a startup.</li><li>[00:09:41] Why God keeps crashing the superintelligence party.</li><li>[00:11:13] Shane Legg's grainy 2009 prophecy — and the nervous giggle.</li><li>[00:13:11] Ilya Sutskever burns an effigy.</li><li>[00:13:54] Demis at 4 a.m., hunting God's algorithm.</li><li>[00:18:43] Super-abundance, Mad Max, and the China shock lesson.</li><li>[00:22:39] The kitchen debate with Geoff Hinton that flipped Sebastian.</li><li>[00:24:06] Why a zero-percent chance of doom is indefensible.</li><li>[00:24:52] Will Washington seize the labs? The Mythos wake-up call.</li><li>[00:27:18] Anthropic's bull case, bear case, and a dead parent's letter.</li><li>[00:33:24] Where Sebastian and Benedict Evans part ways.</li><li>[00:38:16] Is the SaaS apocalypse overdone? One word: Palantir.</li><li>[00:39:53] The AI friend you'll never switch.</li><li>[00:41:56] Does Google win consumer AI by default?</li><li>[00:44:45] Four cities, eight days: China actually talks safety.</li><li>[00:47:28] A Cold War non-proliferation playbook for AI.</li><li>[00:49:45] Did the chip export controls actually work?</li><li>[00:51:49] Burned doves: why Washington swears China won't talk.</li><li>[00:54:56] "By 2028, the race is over" — one lab boss' bet.</li><li>[00:59:11] Inside Hikvision: toddlers, sensors, and US sanctions.</li><li>[01:01:07] Bill Gurley's Uber bet: venture capital perfected.</li><li>[01:05:18] Luke Nosek bear-hugs DeepMind into existence.</li><li>[01:10:52] Thiel's heresy: never invest by committee.</li><li>[01:11:59] How Founders Fund nearly fumbled the deal of the century.</li><li>[01:14:30] Selling to Google for $650M: a secret British heist?</li><li>[01:16:41] The Traitorous Eight, gardening leave, and the UK's to-do list.</li><li>[01:20:55] Ender's Game: "That's really how I see myself."</li><li>[01:23:42] Too dumb for Gödel, Escher, Bach? Maybe an LLM can help.</li><li>[01:25:19] If not Demis or Sam, then Dario.</li><li>[01:26:04] My royalties cliff — and what dropped in late 2022.</li><li>[01:27:47] Lila Sciences and the labs that run themselves.</li><li>[01:31:13] Sebastian's billboard: "Prepare your mind."</li><li>[01:35:14] The one thing Sebastian will never outsource to AI.</li><li>[01:40:09] Parting thoughts.</li></ul> For show notes and past guests on <a href="https://tim.blog/podcast" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The Tim Ferriss Show</a>, please visit <a href="https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/podcast</a>.For deals from sponsors of <a href="https://tim.blog/podcast" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The Tim Ferriss Show</a>, please visit <a href="https://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/podcast-sponsors</a>Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at <a href="https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/friday</a>.For transcripts of episodes, go to <a href="https://tim.blog/transcripts" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/transcripts</a>.Discover Tim’s books: <a href="https://tim.blog/books" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/books</a>.Follow Tim:Twitter: <a href="https://twitter.com/tferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">twitter.com/tferriss</a> Instagram: <a href="https://instagram.com/timferriss/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">instagram.com/timferriss</a>YouTube: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/timferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">youtube.com/timferriss</a>Facebook: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">facebook.com/timferriss</a> LinkedIn: <a href="http://linkedin.com/in/timferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">linkedin.com/in/timferriss</a>See Privacy Policy at <a href="https://art19.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://art19.com/privacy</a> and California Privacy Notice at <a href="https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info</a>.

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#870: Sebastian Mallaby, Biographer of Demis Hassabis — Lessons from 100+ AI Insiders on The Race to Superintelligence, The Religion of AI, and Spotting Breakthroughs Early

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