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#667: Dr. Gül Dölen on Rethinking Psychedelics, New Applications (Autism, Stroke, and Allergies), The Neurobiology of Beginner’s Mind, Octopuses on MDMA, and The Master Key of Metaplasticity

The Tim Ferriss Show

Tim Ferriss is a self-experimenter and bestselling author, best known for The 4-Hour Workweek, which has been translated into 40+ languages. Newsweek calls him "the world's best human guinea pig," and The New York Times calls him "a cross between Jack Welch and a Buddhist monk." In this show, he deconstructs world-class performers from eclectic areas (investing, chess, pro sports, etc.), digging deep to find the tools, tactics, and tricks that listeners can use.

Brought to you by <a href="http://drinklmnt.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">LMNT</a> electrolyte supplement, <a href="http://helixsleep.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Helix Sleep</a> premium mattresses, and <a href="http://athleticgreens.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Athletic Greens’s AG1</a> all-in-one nutritional supplement.Dr. Gül Dölen is an associate professor of Neuroscience at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and a pioneer and world leader of psychedelics research. Her <a href="http://www.dolenlab.org/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">laboratory</a> has discovered a novel mechanism that could account for the broad range of therapeutic applications that psychedelics are currently being tested for. Her lab has discovered a novel critical period for social reward learning and shown that this critical period can be reopened with psychedelic drugs, such as MDMA, LSD, psilocybin, ketamine, and ibogaine. Building on this discovery, she has formulated the hypothesis that psychedelics may be the long sought “master key” for unlocking critical periods across the brain. To test this hypothesis, she has initiated a nationwide collaborative effort to determine whether psychedelics reopen critical periods for ocular dominance plasticity, bird song learning, anatomical plasticity in the barrel cortex, serotonergic neuronal regeneration, dendritic spinogenesis, and motor learning.Importantly, understanding psychedelics through this framework dramatically expands the scope of disorders (including autism, stroke, and allergies) that might benefit from adjunct therapy with psychedelics, an approach she has dubbed <a href="http://www.phathomproject.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">the PHATHOM project</a> (Psychedelic Healing: Adjunct Therapy Harnessing Opened Malleability). Dr. Dölen earned her MD, PhD at Brown University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), where she carried out seminal work on critical periods, learning and memory, and the pathogenesis of autism. Please enjoy!This episode is brought to you by <a href="http://drinklmnt.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">LMNT</a>! What is LMNT? It’s a <a href="http://drinklmnt.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">delicious, sugar-free electrolyte drink mix</a>. I’ve stocked up on boxes and boxes of this and usually use it 1–2 times per day. <a href="http://drinklmnt.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">LMNT</a> is formulated to help anyone with their electrolyte needs and perfectly suited to folks following a keto, low-carb, or Paleo diet. If you are on a low-carb diet or fasting, electrolytes play a key role in relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness.<a href="http://drinklmnt.com/Tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">LMNT</a> came up with a very special offer for you, my dear listeners. For a limited time, you can get a free <a href="http://drinklmnt.com/Tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">LMNT</a> Sample Pack with any purchase. This special offer is available here: <a href="http://drinklmnt.com/Tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">DrinkLMNT.com/Tim</a>.*This episode is also brought to you by <a href="https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Athletic Greens</a>. I get asked all the time, “If you could use only one supplement, what would it be?” My answer is usually <a href="https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">AG1</a> by <a href="https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Athletic Greens</a>, my all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body in 2010 and did not get paid to do so. I do my best with nutrient-dense meals, of course, but <a href="https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">AG</a> further covers my bases with vitamins, minerals, and whole-food-sourced micronutrients that support gut health and the immune system. Right now, <a href="https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Athletic Greens</a> is offering you their Vitamin D Liquid Formula free with your first subscription purchase—a vital nutrient for a strong immune system and strong bones. Visit <a href="https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">AthleticGreens.com/Tim</a> to claim this special offer today and receive the free Vitamin D Liquid Formula (and 5 free travel packs) with your first subscription purchase! That’s up to a one-year supply of Vitamin D as added value when you try their delicious and comprehensive all-in-one daily greens product.*This episode is also brought to you by <a href="http://helixsleep.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Helix Sleep</a>! Helix was selected as the best overall mattress of 2022 by GQ magazine, Wired, and Apartment Therapy. With <a href="http://helixsleep.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Helix</a>, there’s a specific mattress to meet each and every body’s unique comfort needs. Just take their quiz—<a href="http://helixsleep.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">only two minutes to complete</a>—that matches your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress for you. They have a 10-year warranty, and you get to try it out for a hundred nights, risk-free. They’ll even pick it up from you if you don’t love it. And now, Helix is offering 20% off all mattress orders plus two free pillows at <a href="http://helixsleep.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">HelixSleep.com/Tim</a>.*[06:25] How Gül designed her own major as an undergrad.[09:03] Philosophy of mind and theory of mind.[13:33] What theory of mind in non-human species suggests.[16:45] The origin of Gül's interest in autism.[21:37] Autism facts vs. fiction.[28:31] Critical periods.[37:59] How critical periods apply to therapies for autism.[43:37] Why might psychedelics allow us to reopen shut critical periods?[49:25] MDMA and the octopus.[52:40] Challenging popular notions about psychedelic research.[54:52] Plasticity.[1:00:26] Favorite neurotransmitter receptors.[1:06:03] Can psychedelics cure allergies?[1:14:00] Seeking a common pathway for the therapeutic effects of psychedelics.[1:15:54] Potential applications for kappa-opioid agonists.[1:17:02] Beta-arrestin developments.[1:20:40] On Sasha Shulgin.[1:26:19] Strokes.[1:29:56] Cross-cultural considerations.[1:33:26] What do these therapies look like 10 years from now?[1:36:52] Gauging minimum effective dose.[1:42:58] The funding frustrations that almost made Gül give up science.[1:48:44] Taking risks.[1:52:59] What would Gül change about the way research is funded today?[1:55:57] Books most gifted.[1:59:10] Parting thoughts.*For show notes and past guests on <a href="http://tim.blog/podcast" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The Tim Ferriss Show</a>, please visit <a href="https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/podcast</a>.For deals from sponsors of <a href="http://tim.blog/podcast" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The Tim Ferriss Show</a>, please visit <a href="http://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/podcast-sponsors</a>Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at <a href="https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/friday</a>.For transcripts of episodes, go to <a href="http://tim.blog/transcripts" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/transcripts</a>.Discover Tim’s books: <a href="http://tim.blog/books" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/books</a>.Follow Tim:Twitter: <a href="https://twitter.com/tferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">twitter.com/tferriss</a> Instagram: <a href="https://instagram.com/timferriss/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">instagram.com/timferriss</a>YouTube: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/timferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">youtube.com/timferriss</a>Facebook: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">facebook.com/timferriss</a> LinkedIn: <a href="http://linkedin.com/in/timferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">linkedin.com/in/timferriss</a>Past guests on <a href="http://tim.blog/podcast" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The Tim Ferriss Show</a> include <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/12/08/jerry-seinfeld/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Jerry Seinfeld</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/06/26/hugh-jackman/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Hugh Jackman</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/04/16/jane-goodall/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Dr. Jane Goodall</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2018/11/27/lebron-james-mike-mancias/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">LeBron James</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/05/20/kevin-hart/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Kevin Hart</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2018/09/07/doris-kearns-goodwin-leadership/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Doris Kearns Goodwin</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2015/12/06/jamie-foxx/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Jamie Foxx</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/10/19/matthew-mcconaughey/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Matthew McConaughey</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2017/05/21/esther-perel/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Esther Perel</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/05/08/elizabeth-gilbert/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Elizabeth Gilbert</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2017/12/20/terry-crews-how-to-have-do-and-be-all-you-want/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Terry Crews</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/08/12/sia/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Sia</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/10/27/yuval-noah-harari/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Yuval Noah Harari</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2016/06/21/malcolm-gladwell/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Malcolm Gladwell</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/05/27/secretary-madeleine-albright/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Madeleine Albright</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2017/03/30/cheryl-strayed/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Cheryl Strayed</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2019/02/18/jim-collins/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Jim Collins</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/11/11/mary-karr/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Mary Karr,</a> <a href="https://tim.blog/2014/10/21/brain-pickings/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Maria Popova</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/05/15/sam-harris-2/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Sam Harris</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2021/01/21/michael-phelps-grant-hackett/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Michael Phelps</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/01/16/bob-iger/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Bob Iger</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2019/10/31/edward-norton-motherless-brooklyn/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Edward Norton</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2015/02/02/arnold-schwarzenegger/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Arnold Schwarzenegger</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2014/06/24/neil-strauss/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Neil Strauss</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2019/09/12/ken-burns/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Ken Burns</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2017/08/26/maria-sharapova/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Maria Sharapova</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2016/05/29/marc-andreessen/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Marc Andreessen</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2019/03/28/neil-gaiman/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Neil Gaiman</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2019/10/03/neil-degrasse-tyson/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Neil de Grasse Tyson</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2016/09/21/jocko-willink-on-discipline-leadership-and-overcoming-doubt/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Jocko Willink</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/12/03/daniel-ek/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Daniel Ek</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/09/08/kelly-slater/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Kelly Slater</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2019/11/27/peter-attia-fasting-metformin-longevity/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Dr. Peter Attia</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2016/02/10/seth-godin/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Seth Godin</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2018/09/25/howard-marks/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Howard Marks</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/02/06/brene-brown-striving-self-acceptance-saving-marriages/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Dr. Brené Brown</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2019/04/09/eric-schmidt/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Eric Schmidt</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/05/01/michael-lewis/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Michael Lewis</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2018/03/08/joe-gebbia-co-founder-of-airbnb/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Joe Gebbia</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2018/05/06/michael-pollan-how-to-change-your-mind/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Michael Pollan</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2021/03/01/jordan-peterson/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Dr. Jordan Peterson</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Vince Vaughn</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/04/23/brian-koppelman/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Brian Koppelman</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2019/05/07/ramit-sethi/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Ramit Sethi</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/11/18/dax-shepard/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Dax Shepard</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2014/10/15/money-master-the-game/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Tony Robbins</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/05/18/jim-dethmer/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Jim Dethmer</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/11/19/dan-harris/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Dan Harris</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2017/09/13/ray-dalio/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Ray Dalio</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2015/08/18/the-evolutionary-angel-naval-ravikant/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Naval Ravikant</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2021/03/08/vitalik-buterin-naval-ravikant/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Vitalik Buterin</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2021/03/16/elizabeth-lesser/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Elizabeth Lesser</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2019/04/18/amanda-palmer-2/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Amanda Palmer</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2021/02/18/katie-haun/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Katie Haun</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2017/10/09/richard-branson/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Sir Richard Branson</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/09/02/chuck-palahniuk/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Chuck Palahniuk</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2017/10/18/arianna-huffington/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Arianna Huffington</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2015/08/31/the-oracle-of-silicon-valley-reid-hoffman-plus-michael-mccullough/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Reid Hoffman</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2017/09/17/bill-burr/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Bill Burr</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2015/06/26/whitney-cummings/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Whitney Cummings</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2015/05/15/rick-rubin/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Rick Rubin</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/03/26/vivek-murthy/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Dr. Vivek Murthy</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2017/09/09/darren-aronofsky/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Darren Aronofsky</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2022/02/22/margaret-atwood/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Margaret Atwood</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2022/03/24/mark-zuckerberg/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Mark Zuckerberg</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2014/09/09/peter-thiel/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Peter Thiel</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2018/02/20/gabor-mate/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Dr. Gabor Maté</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2021/07/09/anne-lamott/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Anne Lamott</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2022/01/12/sarah-silverman/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Sarah Silverman</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2021/07/06/andrew-huberman/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Dr. Andrew Huberman</a>, and many more.See Privacy Policy at <a href="https://art19.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://art19.com/privacy</a> and California Privacy Notice at <a href="https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info</a>.

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#667: Dr. Gül Dölen on Rethinking Psychedelics, New Applications (Autism, Stroke, and Allergies), The Neurobiology of Beginner’s Mind, Octopuses on MDMA, and The Master Key of Metaplasticity

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